Vitayu, and welcome to this week’s feature presentation from Nash Holos Ukrainian Roots Radio. I’m Pawlina, producer and host of Nash Holos, which airs weekly on AM and FM radio in Vancouver and Nanaimo, British Columbia, and of course online. You can find program information, broadcast times, and links to the live streams and podcasts at our website, www.nashholos.com.
But now, sit back, relax, and enjoy this feature interview, which was recently broadcast on the show.
From Vancouver, a political analyst and author of two spy thrillers set in Ukraine — Yaroslav’s Treasure and Yaroslav’s Revenge — is Mirko Petriw. Mirko was also the president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, BC Provincial Council, and has a hand in many things going on in the Ukrainian community in the Lower Mainland. We have had Mirko on our show many times in the Vancouver program, and he is joining us now here on our Nanaimo program.
So vitayu, Mirko — welcome.
Mirko Petriw: Thank you, Pawlina.
Pawlina: You’ve been keeping a very close eye on the developments in Ukraine. For the benefit of listeners who are not familiar with what’s going on: the protests are because the president is trying to take the country in a direction that most people don’t want — away from the European Union. And this is exactly why Ukrainians are protesting in the streets. Does that pretty much sum it up, Mirko?
Mirko Petriw: Yes, that pretty well sums it up. In fact, President Yanukovych not only did not sign the Association Agreement with the EU, but has every intention of signing up with the Customs Union with Russia. So he’s actually taking the exact opposite direction.
Pawlina: Now, if you listen to media reports in the West, they talk about this fabled — and I use that word deliberately — east–west divide. Some people are happy enough to go with the Russian Union, but the popular protests — the populists — want to go to Europe. We’ve got tens of thousands of protesters wanting to go to Europe, but only a few hundred paid protesters wanting to stay with Russia. That’s what I’ve been reading. What’s your take on that, Mirko? Is that pretty much accurate as well?
Mirko Petriw: It’s reasonably accurate. In actual fact, the pro‑European protesters are in the hundreds of thousands. The pro‑Russian ones are a smaller number, although they’re not likely to protest. What we are seeing, though, is staged events. And I know that the other day we talked about information wars, and a lot of the staging is part of that information war. Not everything you see is real.
Pawlina: What do you mean? Can you give an example of what you mean by staged?
Mirko Petriw: A very fine example was shown on CBC, but wasn’t really commented on — it was just a film clip. On the first of December, there was a major demonstration going on. Then there was a bit of an assault on the president’s administration building. That assault showed, believe it or not, a front‑end loader — a kind of bulldozer — trying to attack a line of riot police who, surprisingly, did not have their shields with them. There was this major violent confrontation that was, in fact, staged.
What happened is that the authorities pay thugs — professional thugs, professional demonstrators if you wish — to pretend to be demonstrators. There is now film of busloads of these people being escorted by riot police to their positions. And obviously a bulldozer can’t go through the streets of the city without attracting attention, and yet, surprise, surprise, this front‑end loader suddenly appears in front of the president’s administration.
So the whole thing was staged as a provocation. One has to be very careful when reporting on these events.
Pawlina: There have been a lot of journalists beaten up.
Mirko Petriw: Yes, there have — and a lot of civilians. On the day I’m talking about, December 1st, I think the count is well over a hundred hospitalized.
Pawlina: The journalists being beaten — are they local, foreign?
Mirko Petriw: Foreign journalists have sustained injuries too. There was a photograph of a Danish journalist with a head wound.
Pawlina: Now, the president has come out and denounced the violence.
Mirko Petriw: He’s denounced the violence — but he’s speaking out of both sides of his mouth, which is not surprising. On his website he’s denounced the violence. In other places he is supporting the police. And surprisingly enough, today he’s in Beijing, so he’s not even in Ukraine.
Pawlina: This is Nash Holos Ukrainian Roots Radio on CHLY 101.7 FM. We’re talking with Mirko Petriw, a Vancouver author and political analyst on things Ukrainian, and we’ve just been talking about some of the protests and things going on behind the scenes. Now, Mirko, you mentioned earlier something about information wars. What did you mean by that? Give us some examples.
Mirko Petriw: That is becoming a staple in modern warfare, whether it’s military combat or other forms of warfare and subversion — issuing misinformation, knocking down websites, usually referred to as DDOS attacks. A fine example would have been the 2008 war between Georgia and Russia, where days prior to the war various websites were knocked down, specifically the website for the Georgian government.
This is happening in Ukraine right now, or was happening. Several sites went down. Even prior to all this, false sites were set up. There’s a Ukrainian newspaper called Ukrainska Pravda, which is an online newspaper. Well, surprisingly, a paper version showed up — and of course it was a total falsification. There isn’t any paper version of the newspaper, but a paper version was being handed out basically as misinformation and as a provocation.
Pawlina: So this is propaganda wars?
Mirko Petriw: Very much propaganda wars — exactly what it is.
Pawlina: You mentioned DDOS attacks, and this is not something new. This has been going on ever since the internet happened, right? Ukrainians discovered that they could counteract propaganda and also connect with each other, start to network, exchange information. And that is what led to the 2004 Orange Revolution.
Mirko Petriw: Very much so.
Pawlina: Now, can you compare the two? The similarities are: it’s still Viktor Yanukovych that people are protesting against, nine years later. They’re still protesting corruption, and they still want to join the European Union. But there are a lot of differences.
Mirko Petriw: Yes, there are. For background: in 2004, the Orange Revolution happened as a result of falsified presidential election results. To make a long story short, it resulted in a third round of presidential elections, which were relatively clean and ended with the presidency of Viktor Yushchenko. Yanukovych was the loser in that case.
That revolution was surprisingly peaceful — nobody got killed, very minimal injuries, close to zero. It had been prepared months, if not a year, ahead of time. There was an NGO called Pora — young people willing to stand up against falsified elections. They were trained by the Einstein Institute in the U.S. in how to handle large demonstrations and how to oppose riot police without resorting to violence and without allowing violent acts to occur. There was a science to it. So 2004 was very well prepared.
This year, the crowd and demonstrators really weren’t prepared for the turn of events. What we had was, in many ways, the perfect storm. On November 23rd, Ukrainians around the world commemorate the Holodomor — the genocide of 1932–33. The next day, a demonstration was scheduled in support of the European Union and the Association Agreement. When it was scheduled, it was expected that the agreement would be signed. So it was a demonstration in support — not against anything.
Of course, at the last minute, Yanukovych and his government made a U‑turn. They did not sign the Association Agreement with the EU and instead decided they would try to join the Customs Union with Russia. So this demonstration, which was a groundswell event and not designed as a confrontational demonstration, suddenly became one. The lack of organization was visible.
It was visible early morning of December 1st, at 4 a.m., when the police attacked. That really wouldn’t have happened had everything been organized properly. The police attack resulted in dozens and dozens of injured and hospitalized.
Pawlina: So the difference is: in 2004 they had advance warning and planning — it was election time. Now there are no elections. Yanukovych is in the middle of his term, and this was just a policy direction he was trying to take. So this is organic protest.
Mirko Petriw: Very much groundswell and organic, which was part of the problem. Now it has morphed into a more political and organized action, but at the very beginning it was apolitical — very much apolitical. In fact, opposition parties and candidates were discouraged from taking part. That’s no longer the case. These things changed literally from one day to another. But initially it was just a groundswell demonstration, and it suffered as a result.
Pawlina: Now, the location of the protest right now is Kyiv?
Mirko Petriw: It is Kyiv — and a lot of major cities in Ukraine.
Pawlina: So it is spreading.
Mirko Petriw: Yes, it is. The big numbers are in Kyiv, and people are taking buses and trains to Kyiv. Those crowds have swollen, and by some estimates we’re on the order of 600,000.
Pawlina: Wow. Well, Mirko, I’m going to let you go and we’ll bring you back a little later in our broadcast, hopefully. But I did want to mention that I want to find out if it’s spreading because we’ve got people in Lviv who contribute to our program — part of the Ukrainian Jewish Heritage feature. Volodya, the project manager, alerted me early on. He said, “You have to watch this,” and he was quite troubled. He is in Lviv, and that team is in Lviv, so we’re going to hear from them shortly after. We’re just going to play a Ukrainian Jewish Heritage feature with Renata Haninets, and then we’ll hear from Volodya after it’s over.
So thank you very much, Mirko, and we will talk to you again soon.
Mirko Petriw: I’ll be by the phone.
Pawlina: Okay, thanks Mirko. Bye‑bye.
And we were speaking with Mirko Petriw, author and political analyst from Vancouver.
I hope you enjoyed this week’s feature interview from Nash Holos Ukrainian Roots Radio. In addition to interviews such as the one you just heard, Nash Holos is host to many other outstanding features produced by people who love to share their love of Ukrainian culture with non‑Ukrainian speakers. From Ukrainian recipes and cooking tips, to reviews of English‑language books on Ukrainian themes, views on Ukrainian politics and current affairs, culture, folklore, and of course great Ukrainian music — traditional and contemporary — by artists from Ukraine, Canada, and around the world.
So join me, Pawlina, and my fascinating guests on the weekly radio broadcasts in Vancouver and Nanaimo. You can listen to the live broadcasts on air or online, or download the podcast and listen later in your own good time. You’ll find program information, broadcast details, and podcast links at www.nashholos.com.
So until next time — do pobachannya.
